The podcast election: Can legacy media still reach voters?

In many ways independent media is surpassing legacy media in 2024, but will it continue?

This was originally published by Salon

"Joe Rogan" by Steven Crowder is licensed under CC BY 3.0.

“It is crooked. But it is also they are diminishing themselves” exclaimed Joe Rogan on Friday's episode of his podcast "The Joe Rogan Experience." He was talking about the news media. His guest, Donald Trump, agreed, adding, “They are hurting themselves.” Rogan lamented of the mainstream media, “They are killing all their credibility and it is opening new media. It is opening up the credibility to new media."

Many news media outlets and personalities have referred to the 2024 election as the “podcasters election” to signify the growing importance of podcasts in electoral politics. Trump’s three-hour sit-down appearance was a pleasant surprise for Rogan’s audience. Rogan previously denied Trump would appear on his popular podcast. “Trump Cancels All His Events in Favor of One of the Worst People Ever,” read the New Republic's headline announcing the shift. The New Republic’s disdain for Rogan has been typical for legacy media. In 2020, Democratic Party leaders, including Joe Biden and many in legacy media chided then-presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, a candidate legacy news media had reported on negatively and inaccurately in previous two presidential election cycles, for appearing on Rogan and accepting his endorsement. Mainstream media accused him of legitimizing Rogan’s alleged misinformation. In 2022, Vox labeled Rogan a problem, arguing that "the problem of Joe Rogan is a problem of the modern internet." In 2024, an editor at the New York Times appeared on MSNBC to dismiss the Rogan audience as people in need of “therapy.” However, reducing Trump’s talk with Rogan to a conversation about Rogan misses the critical role that podcasting is playing in the 2024 election.

Both candidates have appeared on various podcasts throughout their campaign. For example, Trump has been interviewed by comedians Theo Von and Andrew Schulz, while Harris made an appearance on "Call Her Daddy," will appear on Shannon Sharpe’s "Club Shay Shay" podcast, and considered an appearance on Rogan before declining. There is much speculation around which voters these candidates are targeting – such as low-turnout voters or the coveted male voters (men make up the majority of Rogan’s audience) and Black male voters in particular - which Democrats fear will cost them the election - but regardless of the target demographic- their decision to appear demonstrates that those in electoral politics are coming around to see the power, utility, and opportunity of podcasting in a democracy. Podcasters have become key players in shaping public discussions around elections, and in the process, they compete with and often outperform legacy media outlets.

Podcasting is a way of creating and distributing audio or video content that people can access on demand over the internet. It evolved from radio and audio blogs from the 1980s and took its current form around 2003. Podcasters offer something different from legacy media—longer, more focused discussions, though often with lower production quality. They cover topics that mainstream media tends to ignore. Unlike legacy media, where similar outlets are viewed as competition, podcasters often treat each other as part of a larger community, or "clique."

Podcasting’s popularity is undeniable. An estimated 320 million people listen to podcasts globally, though it's hard to pinpoint exactly how many podcasts are active. In the U.S., about half of Americans listen to at least one podcast a month, making podcasting a $4 billion global industry.

News and political podcasts have started to rival traditional corporate media. Over the past decade, audiences have been leaving legacy news outlets—those established before the digital age, like ABC, CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC—in favor of podcasts such as "Bad Faith," "Breaking Points," "The VanGuard," "The Joe Rogan Experience," "The Jimmy Dore Show," "Empire Files," "Useful Idiots" and "The Realignment Podcast." Indeed, in October 2023, the Washington Post noted that podcasters' audience size was surpassing legacy media. Indeed, since the 2020 election, the decline in ratings for major news networks has been striking. The Trump presidency temporarily boosted legacy media viewership, but since President Biden’s inauguration, podcast audiences have remained steady or increased while networks like CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC saw a precipitous decline in their audience. 

Legacy media has attempted to counter this trend by discrediting figures like Joe Rogan, labeling him a source of disinformation. However, instead of undermining Rogan, whose audience continues to grow, the legacy media have discredited themselves as hypocrites. For example, CNN falsely claimed that Rogan took horse dewormer. Not to be outdone, fellow Rogan critic MSNBC edited a video to make it appear as though Rogan endorsed Harris, an action for which MSNBC has since corrected.

One reason for podcasting’s growing appeal is the willingness to host guests and discuss topics that mainstream outlets won’t touch. Over the past five years, podcasters have openly criticized legacy media for mishandling major issues like COVID-19, elections, war, Biden’s cognitive decline, and misinformation. This has convinced some listeners that the truth is more likely to be found in new media spaces. While legacy media has long claimed that audiences have short attention spans or prefer polished, high-quality broadcasts, millions of people are tuning into lengthy, low-production podcasts on niche topics. In this sense, podcasters represent a challenge to the assumptions of traditional media.

While podcasts have existed for decades, the 2024 election is the first time presidential campaigns have treated podcasters and their audiences as essential. Trump, to his credit, recognized the power of this space as early as 2015, when he was a candidate appearing on alternative media and podcasts. At the time, he was mocked for being on the fringe of society. Interestingly, Trump reportedly wanted to be on Rogan’s podcast in 2020, but Rogan declined.

In 2024, as polls tightened and the race is in a “dead heat,” campaigns realized that appearing on podcasts could mobilize even small sectors of non-voters, which could be crucial in a close race. Both campaigns invested heavily in online influencers and podcast appearances. This shift signifies a growing recognition of podcasters as important figures in the political media landscape. If this trend continues and legacy media fails to regain its influence, podcasters might well become the future of political news and interviews. Regardless, this is a big year for podcasters as it portends how they will play an increasingly influential role in American democracy.

Nolan Higdon is a author, lecturer at Merrill College and the Education Department at University of California, Santa Cruz, Project Censored National Judge, and founding member of the Critical Media Literacy Conference of the Americas. Higdon’s areas of concentration include critical AI literacy, podcasting, digital culture, news media history & propaganda, and critical media literacy. All of Higdon’s work is available at Substack (https://nolanhigdon.substack.com/). He is the author of The Anatomy of Fake News: A Critical News Literacy Education (2020); Let’s Agree to Disagree: A Critical Thinking Guide to Communication, Conflict Management, and Critical Media Literacy (2022); The Media And Me: A Guide To Critical Media Literacy For Young People (2022); and Surveillance Education: Navigating the conspicuous absence of privacy in schools (Routledge). Higdon is a regular source of expertise for CBS, NBC, The New York Times, and The San Francisco Chronicle.

Video: Project Censored Show: A Guide to Fake News & the 2024 Election with Dr. Nolan Higdon (October 2024)

On the program today, co-host Mickey Huff welcomes Dr. Nolan Higdon, media scholar and author of many books including The Anatomy of Fake News. Today we’ll talk to Nolan about a brief resource guide to fake news in the 2024 election with helpful hints for the voting public. We’ll talk about the history of fake news, mis- and disinformation and its impacts on the public, and what we can do about it that doesn’t involve censorship.